Frontline Health

#125 - CDC Vaccine Recommendations Updated: Here’s What It Really Means

• Troy Duell

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*Disclaimer: This is not medical advice. Please discuss all medical decisions including vaccines with your healthcare provider.

We examine the updated CDC childhood vaccine guidance, why several shots moved from universal to risk-based recommendations, and how shared decision making can rebuild trust. We offer practical questions parents can bring to pediatric visits and discuss timing, consent, and international data.

• what changed in the childhood vaccine schedule and why it matters
• differences between required and recommended vaccines
• timing and spacing considerations for newborn immune health
• public health aims versus individual risk profiles
• the role of shared clinical decision making in consent
• lessons from international vaccine schedules and evidence
• how pediatric groups and clinicians are responding
• practical questions to ask your pediatrician before delivery


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SPEAKER_00:

Today on the Frontline Health Podcast. I can see both sides of the argument. I can see where it could create confusion and make people go, well, what am I supposed to do? Because we've done this for years. So we've had these this vaccine schedule. I don't know how long we've had our current vaccine schedule, but we know it's been for quite some time. And just because we've had it for quite some time and you bring in a change, that's going to create confusion and it's going to create some tension because nobody likes to see that change. But I think ultimately it will create greater trust in the medical community. Anytime you can apologize for something you've done wrong or reassess something that has been out there for a long time and say, oops, we probably didn't need to do that. I think that creates greater trust in people because you now know that people are looking at it from a holistic way. They're looking at it honestly and they're saying, this is what the data now says, different than what we had 20 years ago. We thought this was a great idea 20 years ago, but now the data is coming out. It's showing us that there may be an issue with a few of these vaccines. So we're going to err on the side of caution and we're going to say, let's hold off until we get more information and we can make an even greater decision and a better decision. And in the meantime, we're going to give you all the information we know and allow you to make that decision for what you think is best for you and your children. And I think that will always create greater trust for people.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello, welcome back to another episode of the Frontline Health Podcast, where we share health news, tips, and insights to help you take ownership of your health. I'm Evan Patrick. As always, Troy Duell, founder and CEO of Centurion Health, is here with me. Recently, the CDC released updated vaccine guidelines that changed how several vaccines are recommended, moving some decisions away from universal recommendations and towards shared decision making based on individual risk. That is a big deal and it affects real families. So today we're going to unpack what's changed, what it means, and hopefully how to think clearly about it without fear or politics getting in the way of rational thinking. As a disclaimer, none of this is medical advice. We are simply here to share these changes and share our thoughts. So, Troy, big topic, obviously. And to start with, what was your initial reaction when you heard this news?

SPEAKER_00:

Honestly, I was a little excited and at the same time a bit shocked because I think we've seen a lot of studies over the years suggesting there are some issues with the vaccines that kids have been taking and kind of the schedule that we have. And we've seen other nations actually start taking steps to take them off their national schedules. But I just wasn't honestly sure if the administration had the stomach to go through with it because there is a lot of money and a lot of influence in there when you talk about vaccines. And I was pleasantly surprised that they at least started making moves in that direction. And I think this is a good start where we can begin to assess things on an honest basis, or at least I hope it's on an honest basis.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so not to get, I don't mean to catch you off guard, but you just sparked a question in me off the bat. Um you mentioned that there have been some things that we have seen in the past, and I'm just curious, like what were kind of some of those red flags that you think have led people to question what we've been doing?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I mean, there there have been cases, especially with the hepatitis B vaccine and some of the others, of kids getting high fevers, kids dying from taking the vaccines that that we've known about over the years, but we've really never taken a deep dive to put two and two together and say that, okay, this was a cause of this kid actually dying because they took the vaccine. They've all kind of been in the realm of saying, well, there was something outside the norm that that's what caused uh harm to this child. But now we're actually looking at it. We've we've always had thoughts that maybe that happened, but as a medical community, I don't think we ever really wanted to wrestle with it because the truth is uh vaccine companies have complete immunity. So you can't sue them anyway. There's just a fund that's out there that uh vaccine companies can use or that individuals can use if a vaccine causes harm to their children that they can sue and try to get some um payment for the disabilities that have come in and taken place. So I think that's where I would go with it as a whole, is we've just seen some of these things over the years tick in. Thankfully, it hasn't been an exorbitant amount of individuals, but it's still enough that it should cause us all to pause and go what's the best time to take these vaccines if we're going to take them? Is there a better schedule with them? Should we space them out a little further? And I think those are questions that this administration is doing a better job of asking. Um, and hopefully we'll continue to ask those questions because that's what we should be doing as a medical community.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I just think I think this topic is something that has been a hard one for your average person to think through uh on a daily basis. Obviously, you know, we know with the pandemic that caught a lot of people's attention because, you know, they felt so misled. They felt like they could not trust um, you know, the CDC or any of these other federal organizations to really be completely honest and transparent and up front. And I think that got a lot of people asking questions, not just about things going on during COVID, but like, okay, these recommendations that they have been making to us for so long, do they really have the support for that that we would like for them to have with the confidence that they have been, you know, making making claims about things? And, you know, it's so interesting. Like you hear people who are really, really pro-vaccine, they say things like, there has never been a single study say pointing towards anything wrong with with any of the vaccines. And then you have other people who are very, very strongly, you know, they they have had personal experiences or know somebody or are really just curious. And sometimes that strong reaction from the other side makes them even more hesitant to want to do what they're what they're recommending. And so I really think it's important for people to be able to think through this clearly, and I'm I'm really glad that we're having this conversation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I I think you you hit the nail on the head. I mean, the the issue that we have with most vaccines is you don't have placebo-controlled trials with vaccines because you already have a vaccine on the market that is supposedly safe and effective. So anything that you're testing against is testing against that vaccine that's already on the market. And it's it's almost false science because until you get to a point where you truly have a placebo-controlled study against that product itself, I don't know that we'll ever get true answers to what is going on. And because of the way that the science is set up, they consider it um a case where you just can't do it because it's morally um repugnant to say that you're gonna give somebody a placebo when you have a product that's on the market that supposedly helps. So that's the the circular reasoning we seem to be in on these vaccines. And I I don't know where the break is gonna come in, come in and hopefully save us from this, but we've got to start changing our thinking on some of this in order to get some true answers about what's happening.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's really great insight. I guess to start with, you know, it would be important to lay out um what exactly has changed in the vaccine schedule.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, great question. So currently there are 17 recommended vaccines, or previously there were 17 recommended vaccines. Currently, the new rules are there are 11 vaccines that they recommend. So they move six vaccines off the schedule and they recommend those six vaccines only for high-risk kids, or they recommend having a discussion with your healthcare practitioner to kind of walk through whether your child is one that you want to have these vaccines. So they're no longer recommending uh rotavirus, flu, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, RSV, and meningiococcal disease vaccines for for kids when they're born. With the hepatitis shots, the big thing that they were really talking about is moving those shots at birth. So the day of uh some the day somebody's born, they usually give hepatitis A and hepatitis B shots, but now they've moved those and they strongly recommend at least a month, maybe two months before you get those, if you get them at all. So they took the list down, and then with some of those on the list, they even recommended pushing out a little bit and not getting all at once.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, public health is such a such a tricky beast to deal with because the conversation so often uh gets taken away from the individual. And whenever there are questions of, you know, is this is this uh vaccine right for me or right for my child, it becomes well, it's very unlikely that there's going to be something that goes wrong with it. And you just you need to look out for those around you. We don't want another outbreak of of some of these things. And it it's it's tricky because I don't know of another medication where there's not a conversation there about is this right for an individual that's just recommended to like literally every every child who's coming through. So it's it's a really weird thing when you when you step back and think about it that way.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, it is. And then you know, with some of those diseases, it's not a disease that really is a communicable disease from the standpoint of when you get most of these vaccines, what what I mean by that is you're really protecting yourself, you're not necessarily protecting the community at large. So measles is a great example of that. That's really more about protecting yourself. Polio is another one that protects yourself and less so the community at large, because it is so infrequently um seen out in public. And, you know, those there would be some who would say, well, that's because uh people have been taking their vaccines, so you have less of it out there. But you know, others would say that still doesn't really answer the question of why one child should take it when maybe they've got issues with immune health or they have other things that are going on. So um really taking it on a case-by-case basis, which is the same thing we do with every every other medication that we take, we want to make sure that it is absolutely right for that person to take it. Because some medications may be good for you, but they're not good for me and my health. And I think when we get to that level, we've actually gotten to a much better level when we're talking about our our health as a whole.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I think that's the the kind of um you know, the kind of dialogue that really helps build trust with people who might be might fall under the anti-vaccination camp. You know, if if a if a provider is willing to sit down with them and and explain the reasons why something is right for their child or for them, it it makes it, it takes it away from an all or nothing approach and into, hey, I'm really invested in the care of your child and this is why this is right for them, or this is why it, you know, you might want to consider not. Um and what that really is, the the phrase that's been used in this conversation is shared clinical decision making. So can you explain for our listeners what exactly does shared clinical decision making mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think it goes back to what we were just talking about, which is really more on a case-by-case basis. So you're gonna have a discussion with your clinician and the patient themselves, or in this case, the parent, and you're gonna weigh in those individual risks. What's the health of your child? Are they super healthy? What are the benefits of what's going on? And then what are your preferences as a parent on what you want your kids to have? And then going through that, you begin to make a decision based off of all those parameters to say, is this the best thing for my kid? Does it alleviate my concerns and fears of something happening because of the vaccine? Or am I now just as concerned as I was and I'm more concerned about what the vaccine could cause my kid than I am about the disease itself? And I think if you can have those discussions with your practitioner, you're gonna be much more confident in either taking the vaccine or not taking the vaccine and know that you're the one who made that decision for your kid. You're the one who brought them into the world, you're the one who's gonna raise them. So you have to make those decisions based on the best information that you can possibly get. And the more information we can give and the more dialogue we can have with our health care practitioners, I think the more buy-in most people will have for the vaccines, or the more buy-in they'll have on their health as a whole, because if they decide not to get it, then they have made that choice and they can go out and take care of their kids the best way possible. And if something happens, then they can feel confident that they had all the information they could to make the right decision and they did the best with what they had, which is what all of us really want in the end, is to be able to make that decision with all the information possible.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, my my parents say that about me all the time. We just did the best that we could with what we what we knew at the time. So um, and I don't fault them for that. Um, but no, I I'm joking. And um, I think this is really we're in such a tense political climate, um, and it's really interesting to see the differences in public health recommendations. We'll talk about some other things in future episodes, but between one political party or one way of thinking and another, and so I I think a lot of people are wondering like, what reasons did the CDC and the Department of Health and Human Services give for making these changes now?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think the biggest thing was this idea that they were seeing some of the things out in public, they'd heard of things, but then more I think more than anything else was just understanding that internationally the vaccine schedule that we have was much greater than the vaccine schedule that other nations had. And we're falling more in line with all right, this nation has a concern with XYZ vaccine, so why are we okay with it? And then they looked at that data from that country and they made the decision that, okay, this seems like a wise decision. Uh, hepatitis being one of the biggest, which is just for high-risk people who are being born to somebody who maybe is a drug user or has other issues or uh uses needles, whatever. And that is a very, very small percentage of the kids being born. So we took this approach that we're gonna vaccinate everybody to help with what we know is the main cause for it, which is less than 1% of the population. And that seemed like just an overkill, and it caused more immune issues with those kids than what we needed to put them under because you know they're a day old, uh, they would get that on their first day. Um, and it definitely caused some uh immune compromisation uh for each of those kids.

SPEAKER_01:

So since you bring it up, can you explain that a little bit? Uh you piqued my curiosity again, you know, from from what I understand, a a newborn's immune system is like almost not developed at all. Like it is it is almost non-existent when they are first born. Um and so with that, like what is the thought process behind um you know, overloading the immune system with all these vaccines versus giving them time to sort of develop immunity and get and spreading out the vaccine schedule because that's another thing that I think more and more people are curious about.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think uh what what we were doing for years is just loading up so many vaccines in kids, which means introducing new viral infections uh to them that their body is now having to fight off and learn how to fight off. So when you have too many of them all at once, it was not uncommon for a lot of these kids to have fevers later in the day because they're fighting off this infection. And if they haven't truly been introduced to anything, their body just needs some time to uh develop and to grow into that immune health and the immune system. So it's not really much different than when we say uh you don't want to have sick people around your kids because their immune system is not fully built up. Well, we took that and kind of threw it out the window when it came to vaccines. We decided, well, their immune system's not fully built up, so we're gonna introduce just a little bit to them, but we introduced a little bit from a lot of different vaccines, and it starts to overload their immune system. It's not, you know, they they don't even recommend taking a newborn to the hospital after uh it's been born because it could be uh introduced to new uh viral and bacterial infections that it just can't take on yet. So um we have to give the body time to grow into it. And I I think that's that's really more where we need to just use a little bit of common sense when it comes to it that I think we've lost when it comes to the medical piece. And I I understand because the concept of a vaccine is introduce a little bit so your body can uh adjust to it and then take it on. But I think we just did too much. We we almost put too much trust and hope in these vaccines that kids wouldn't get sick when in reality our bodies were really well designed to be introduced to these things in a natural way, and our bodies can fight a lot of that off. Not always, but um for the most part, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's um that's also really good insight. Thank you for sharing that. And I want to go back to something that you kind of mentioned earlier and go a little deeper into it. You talked about how, you know, when we look at different countries that are developed, particularly in Europe, you have mentioned before with several different things related, you know, to nutrition, related to um the way that their you know medical care works, uh, that they are a little bit ahead of the United States on some things. Um, are we right to look at these countries when it comes to the childhood vaccine schedule, or are there specific reasons why the US has had such an extensive childhood vaccine schedule that? That is uh addressing different needs than what there would exist in developed countries in Europe.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean I mean I think it's one of those things where we've got to look at it and just be honest about what's going on. And anytime you can get more data, that is better for us, and we can make a better decision as a as a community, as a culture, on which vaccines are going to be best for us or not. So uh it allows us to be more educated and say, okay, these products seem to have the biggest effect from what we've seen in the UK or what we've seen in Sweden, whatever it may be, whatever country it may come from, and then use that as part of the process of evaluating whether these things are uh legitimate uh reasons to either keep on our vaccine schedule or to take off. You know, I think it's one of those things that we've just got to go deeper in the evaluation as a whole. Um because when I don't know, when when we ask the right questions about what we're putting in our body, I think that's when we come to a better answer about what's going on. I I think it's also probably a good time to remind people, especially those who are starting to balk at maybe these changes on the vaccine schedule. You know, it was not too long ago in the 1950s when doctors were actually encouraging mothers to smoke. Um, and when they had babies or when they were pregnant, they were encouraging to smoke because it would keep them from overeating. Uh, it would reduce anxiety. So they had scientific data that was saying smoking was a great thing. And then in the late 60s, they started getting, or early 60s, they started getting some doctors who were starting to push back from it and say, we don't think this is such a great idea, but it took 10 to 15 years for the medical community to come around and say, hey, this is not a good idea at all. And by the mid-70s, it was a full-on push to tell women who were pregnant that they should not smoke at all. And it just took time to grow because before doctors were actually recommending cigarettes. And I think we're at that same early stage with vaccines in a lot of ways as we're starting to get data from different places and put that information together and starting to make recommendations. So the surgeon in general, I think it was in the 1960s, actually said it's not good to smoke when you're pregnant. And people freaked out, they didn't like it. They were like, what's he talking about? I know so many people who've smoked and they had babies that were fine and they lived to 90. So it's not a big deal. Um, well, I think we're kind of at that same stage with some of these vaccines, and we just need to really step back and say, you know what, the science isn't settled. They used the same terminology. I went back and looked, they talked about how the science was settled, correlation is not causation, um, and that doctors recommended cigarettes. Well, now we say the science isn't settled when it comes to vaccines, correlation isn't causation, and doctors recommend vaccines. So just because uh our medical community recommends it now does not necessarily mean it's the best thing for us. And that's why I think it's so important to look not just at our data, but data from other countries as well. Long answer, sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

No, that's fantastic, and I think you've just given us all a little bit more insight into why our Congress members uh make some of the decisions that they make because many of them fall into that age range of the babies that they're most smoked while uh while they were in the womb. Uh very true. But no, so I'm curious, how are pediatric organizations and and physicians responding to these changes?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh very similar to the way they did in the 50s and 60s when you talked about cigarettes. Unfortunately, right now, the American Academy of Pediatrics is actually looking to sue the federal government for the change in the vaccine schedule. You actually have uh some physicians who are balking at the idea, but um these early balkers, I think, in time will come back, see the data, much like they did with COVID. There are a lot of doctors who were balking at the idea that um not everybody needed to get vaccinated when it came to COVID. But now they're looking at it and going, uh, we probably made a mistake. People didn't need to be vaccinated with that. And there were issues with it. So I think that will come back around. But unfortunately, right now, American Academy of Pediatrics is actually looking to sue the government um for the changes in the vaccine schedule, which is crazy to me because it is science and you can have two different views of the same thing, and why not err on the side of caution as opposed to the side of, yeah, let's give this to everybody?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, some are criticizing it. They're saying it it creates confusion for parents, and that's really the issue that they that they take with it. They're saying that some parents who would have, you know, gotten these vaccinations for their kids are now confused and and it's they think it's hurting the trust between parents and physicians. Other others are praising it as kind of a move that helps improve consent and autonomy. What are kind of your thoughts on this? And really moving beyond that, do you think this is something that will ultimately help rebuild trust between the public and sort of our healthcare establishment? Or do you think it's something that um is just is just creating confusion and making it harder?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I I can see both sides of the argument. I can see where it could create confusion and make people go, well, what am I supposed to do? Because we've done this for years. So we've had these this vaccine schedule. I don't know how long we've had our current vaccine schedule, but we know it's been for quite some time. And just because we've had it for quite some time and you bring in a change, that's going to create confusion and it's going to create some tension because nobody likes to see that change. But I think ultimately it will create greater trust in the medical community. Anytime you can apologize for something you've done wrong or reassess something that has been out there for a long time and say, oops, we probably didn't need to do that. I think that creates greater trust in people because you now know that people are looking at it from a holistic way. They're looking at it honestly, and they're saying, this is what the data now says, different than what we had 20 years ago. We thought this was a great idea 20 years ago, but now the data is coming out. It's showing us that there may be an issue with a few of these vaccines. So we're going to err on the side of caution and we're going to say, let's hold off until we get more information and we can make an even greater decision and a better decision. And in the meantime, we're going to give you all the information we know and allow you to make that decision for what you think is best for you and your children. And I think that will always create greater trust for people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, something we say all the time on this podcast is we encourage our listeners to take ownership of their health because ultimately at the end of the day, they're their their best health advocate. Um, and so just to kind of give our listeners just a practical some practical advice on how to approach uh this issue when they're looking for a pediatrician or having conversations uh with a pediatrician, I I think it's important to um, you know, just kind of clarify. We're not saying just totally reject everything that your pediatrician is saying. We're saying open up a dialogue, have a conversation, express your concerns, and ultimately at the end of the day, you be the one who is who is making decisions based on you know the advice that your that your pediatrician's giving you. So, what would be some good questions for parents to ask their child's pediatrician when it comes to vaccines?

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's a a great question, probably the best way that we could wrap up this podcast. And I think uh you always want to start by asking which vaccines are required and which are suggested. So a lot of times they all get lumped together, and we uh assume that that means that all of them are required. Well, they've done it for years, and not all of them are required. So you can choose to hold off on them. You can choose to break it up and not do it all at once. And I would certainly ask those questions, see how open they are to changing the vaccine schedule and putting off some of those vaccines for your kids. And if they're hesitant at all, or they come back and they push back and they say it's ridiculous, or you get the impression that they think it's ridiculous, then you probably need to find another pediatrician who is really more about your child's health and your peace of mind instead of theirs. Um, once you get that uh, I guess, base built for these questions with your practitioners, I think it's always to go in and ask what the safety profile of each vaccine is to make sure that you're having these discussions on how often do we see as a whole, what does the data suggest for people who take the hepatitis D vaccine? You know, what are the side effects for the kids? What's the worst thing that could happen for my child? And you want to make sure that what they're telling you, you're backing up with your own research before you make those decisions. And I would also make sure that you have these discussions prior to your baby being born, prior to you going to the hospital and delivering your child, because once you go into the hospital and you've delivered your child, oftentimes you're tired. Uh, in our case, your wife is tired or the mother is tired because then you're not going to be able to make the best decision on what to do. And things happen very fast because they go ahead and give them the vaccine. You know, I've heard some attorneys suggest that you should never have your baby leave your side when you're in the hospital because they've actually had to go back in and sue hospitals that went in and gave uh vaccines to the children, even though the parents had expressed the desire for their kids not to have the vaccines. So there are uh different scenarios and different cases where you should probably keep your child with you at all times, um, make sure that you're overseeing everything that's going on and ask questions when you're in the hospital after the delivery of the child and make all these decisions ahead of time, look into them, do your own research, and then as you're researching uh pediatricians to go take your child to, ask questions about what their thoughts are on the vaccine and if they have any issues with them as a whole.

SPEAKER_01:

Troy, thanks so much for shedding light on just this really important conversation. I know people are asking a lot of questions. People want to, you know, have an easy answer, but with this, it sounds like there's a lot of um difficult conclusions that people have to come to when it comes to um the decisions they're making for their child. And thank you just for giving people some tips and some uh some guidelines for how to navigate that as they're making decisions uh for their children and and for their families. Uh anyone listening out there, if you know somebody who is preparing to have a child and they're considering these things, they want to know um how they how they can just think through making these decisions. Please share this podcast with them and uh and and let them give it a listen so that they can uh just consider some of the things that we have said today. Uh, but thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Frontline Health Podcast. As always, we want to encourage you to go out, take ownership of your health because you are your best health advocate. We'll see you next time. If you enjoyed what you heard today on the podcast, please consider leaving us a review. We would love to hear your feedback and connect with you further. You can also follow us on Instagram, X, TikTok, and YouTube. And for safe, effective, and affordable health and wellness products made in the USA, visit www.centurion.health. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.